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	<title>Comments on: Building a Shortstacking Poker Bot &#8211; A Visual History</title>
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	<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/</link>
	<description>Let's see what happens</description>
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		<title>By: Stealth</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1346</link>
		<dc:creator>Stealth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1346</guid>
		<description>gotta protect yourself from being detected next time.
Try fulltilt, ultimate bet, etc and try again, but this time use stealth!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gotta protect yourself from being detected next time.<br />
Try fulltilt, ultimate bet, etc and try again, but this time use stealth!</p>
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		<title>By: M</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1183</link>
		<dc:creator>M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1183</guid>
		<description>Hi Matt,

very, very interesting article series -- please keep it up if you have more material.

I&#039;ve also written a bot. It started as a little helper tool for my own, manual SNG-playing, showing a HUD on the table with the other players&#039; OPR stats etc etc.  Having that in place, I couldn&#039;t resist the temptation to see how hard it would be to do some table scraping, and when it turned out that was really straightforward, I started coding up a little rule-set that I believed would be able to win at low-stakes SNGs, where play is less than stellar...

After about 4-5 weeks, of off-hour, hobby programming during some evenings and weekends (I have a family with two small kids, so time is limited), I had it absolutely *crushing* the 18-man turbo $1.75 and $3.40 SNGs on Pokerstars -- with a 50% ROI vs the field (ie not counting the rake). Actual ROI (counting the rake) was ~35%.

Table scraping etc was effective enough that the bot could easily 24-table (and probably way more -- I never tested with over 24), but I kept it at 12-18 simultaneous games, to not go completely overboard on the volume.

After about 1.5 months, and 6-7k games, Stars&#039; security team busted me. I&#039;m not sure what triggered it -- it might have been a captcha I missed (I usually just left the bot playing overnight while I was sleeping...), it might have been decision patterns that set off an alarm, it might have been things they scraped off my computer (mouse movements or something like that -- although as you also mention, I believe that&#039;s actually quite unlikely, as they will get an insane amount of false positives, for TableNinja users etc), or -- most likely -- it might have been the volume that led to a manual investigation of the account.

Just before I was busted, there were seemingly random changes to the layout of the hole cards and board cards, and they were sometimes antialiased a little different. That was probably a trap in the Stars client that they can trigger from the server side, to see if the other side starts timing out or doing something else stupid. And my bot obviously fell right into it.

A couple of days after that happened, I then got the same email you got, about terminating my account, confiscating the money I had (I had made a withdrawal the day before, so that was a tiny sum), and expelling me forever from playing at Stars.

Oh, well. It was a short but interesting ride -- but as you also say, it wasn&#039;t really worth it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Matt,</p>
<p>very, very interesting article series &#8212; please keep it up if you have more material.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also written a bot. It started as a little helper tool for my own, manual SNG-playing, showing a HUD on the table with the other players&#8217; OPR stats etc etc.  Having that in place, I couldn&#8217;t resist the temptation to see how hard it would be to do some table scraping, and when it turned out that was really straightforward, I started coding up a little rule-set that I believed would be able to win at low-stakes SNGs, where play is less than stellar&#8230;</p>
<p>After about 4-5 weeks, of off-hour, hobby programming during some evenings and weekends (I have a family with two small kids, so time is limited), I had it absolutely *crushing* the 18-man turbo $1.75 and $3.40 SNGs on Pokerstars &#8212; with a 50% ROI vs the field (ie not counting the rake). Actual ROI (counting the rake) was ~35%.</p>
<p>Table scraping etc was effective enough that the bot could easily 24-table (and probably way more &#8212; I never tested with over 24), but I kept it at 12-18 simultaneous games, to not go completely overboard on the volume.</p>
<p>After about 1.5 months, and 6-7k games, Stars&#8217; security team busted me. I&#8217;m not sure what triggered it &#8212; it might have been a captcha I missed (I usually just left the bot playing overnight while I was sleeping&#8230;), it might have been decision patterns that set off an alarm, it might have been things they scraped off my computer (mouse movements or something like that &#8212; although as you also mention, I believe that&#8217;s actually quite unlikely, as they will get an insane amount of false positives, for TableNinja users etc), or &#8212; most likely &#8212; it might have been the volume that led to a manual investigation of the account.</p>
<p>Just before I was busted, there were seemingly random changes to the layout of the hole cards and board cards, and they were sometimes antialiased a little different. That was probably a trap in the Stars client that they can trigger from the server side, to see if the other side starts timing out or doing something else stupid. And my bot obviously fell right into it.</p>
<p>A couple of days after that happened, I then got the same email you got, about terminating my account, confiscating the money I had (I had made a withdrawal the day before, so that was a tiny sum), and expelling me forever from playing at Stars.</p>
<p>Oh, well. It was a short but interesting ride &#8212; but as you also say, it wasn&#8217;t really worth it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ethan</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1176</link>
		<dc:creator>Ethan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1176</guid>
		<description>In your ABTesting screenshot, what stakes did the bot play to achieve these results?

For any consolation, if it was 50NL, then losing $9.40 after 6507 hands is not so bad (-0.29bb/100 -- granted a small sample size). With rakeback on a site like FullTilt, it would be profitable.

Intuitively, it seems that a shortstacking bot&#039;s bread-and-butter positions will be the positions last to act preflop (CO, BTN, SB, BB), making +EV shoves/re-raises over limpers/raisers. I&#039;m interested in knowing if in the blinds, your bot would re-raise raises/limpers with a fairly wide range given that your opponent&#039;s opening/limping ranges are wide themselves, such that there is a good deal of fold equity? Did the bot use simple statistics such as positional VPIP to estimate opponent hand ranges? If not, I can understand why the bot would be slightly unprofitable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your ABTesting screenshot, what stakes did the bot play to achieve these results?</p>
<p>For any consolation, if it was 50NL, then losing $9.40 after 6507 hands is not so bad (-0.29bb/100 &#8212; granted a small sample size). With rakeback on a site like FullTilt, it would be profitable.</p>
<p>Intuitively, it seems that a shortstacking bot&#8217;s bread-and-butter positions will be the positions last to act preflop (CO, BTN, SB, BB), making +EV shoves/re-raises over limpers/raisers. I&#8217;m interested in knowing if in the blinds, your bot would re-raise raises/limpers with a fairly wide range given that your opponent&#8217;s opening/limping ranges are wide themselves, such that there is a good deal of fold equity? Did the bot use simple statistics such as positional VPIP to estimate opponent hand ranges? If not, I can understand why the bot would be slightly unprofitable.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1173</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 06:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1173</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure it would be easy doing a limit holdem bot and there must be hundreds or thousands of people that are both good at poker/math and programming. I bet there are at least a handful of bots that are profitable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure it would be easy doing a limit holdem bot and there must be hundreds or thousands of people that are both good at poker/math and programming. I bet there are at least a handful of bots that are profitable.</p>
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		<title>By: mattm</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1172</link>
		<dc:creator>mattm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1172</guid>
		<description>It takes a lot of overlapping skills to build a profitable poker bot. I had a lot of experience building add ons for third party software (see AOL-Files, TetriNET bot, PokerShark), so it didn&#039;t take too long to get the interaction part down. That&#039;s the first major hurdle. The second is programming it with a profitable strategy, which is the second and largest hurdle. 

If your goal is to make money, you&#039;re much MUCH better off playing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It takes a lot of overlapping skills to build a profitable poker bot. I had a lot of experience building add ons for third party software (see AOL-Files, TetriNET bot, PokerShark), so it didn&#8217;t take too long to get the interaction part down. That&#8217;s the first major hurdle. The second is programming it with a profitable strategy, which is the second and largest hurdle. </p>
<p>If your goal is to make money, you&#8217;re much MUCH better off playing.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1171</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1171</guid>
		<description>I believe the problems you had were in your approach to strategy. Successful poker players need to be able to put their opponent on a range of hands. Simply evaluating your own hand is meaningless if you don&#039;t know what your opponent is likely holding. For this reason you need to be able to keep track of an opponent&#039;s history and be able to classify them according to how weak/tight they are, and how loose/aggressive they are at a minimum. That information can then be used in an algorithm to determine the likelihood of the opponent holding any given hand, and therefore the likelihood of you holding a superior hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the problems you had were in your approach to strategy. Successful poker players need to be able to put their opponent on a range of hands. Simply evaluating your own hand is meaningless if you don&#8217;t know what your opponent is likely holding. For this reason you need to be able to keep track of an opponent&#8217;s history and be able to classify them according to how weak/tight they are, and how loose/aggressive they are at a minimum. That information can then be used in an algorithm to determine the likelihood of the opponent holding any given hand, and therefore the likelihood of you holding a superior hand.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1169</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1169</guid>
		<description>Do you think you have enough knowledge about short stacking to be profitable at NL100  even though you weren&#039;t able to make a profitable bot because of programming issues.

If you were able to make a bot, do you think many other knowledgable people out there have done the same and are profitable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think you have enough knowledge about short stacking to be profitable at NL100  even though you weren&#8217;t able to make a profitable bot because of programming issues.</p>
<p>If you were able to make a bot, do you think many other knowledgable people out there have done the same and are profitable?</p>
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		<title>By: mattm</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1167</link>
		<dc:creator>mattm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 00:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1167</guid>
		<description>I purchased a collection of every NL cash hand played on Stars from early Dec 06 to March 07. About 7M hands total. From that I parsed out all the hands that had a shortstacker and then parsed those hands to see who had played the most hands. Cuzco was one of the heaviest winners out of that group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I purchased a collection of every NL cash hand played on Stars from early Dec 06 to March 07. About 7M hands total. From that I parsed out all the hands that had a shortstacker and then parsed those hands to see who had played the most hands. Cuzco was one of the heaviest winners out of that group.</p>
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		<title>By: Robbo</title>
		<link>http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/10/building-a-shortstacking-poker-bot-a-visual-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1166</link>
		<dc:creator>Robbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattmazur.com/?p=1211#comment-1166</guid>
		<description>How did you get cuzco&#039;s hand histories. Did he give them to you or did you get them at handhq.com or somewhere?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did you get cuzco&#8217;s hand histories. Did he give them to you or did you get them at handhq.com or somewhere?</p>
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